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Post by Connie on Oct 7, 2008 8:44:18 GMT -5
Each week in the general population of America from negligence or malpractice or just because they have NO health care? Nice to know that we can make sure our prisoners have health care. "Medical care in California's prisons is so bad it has been ruled unconstitutional. Henderson appointed a receiver to run the prison medical system after finding that an average of an inmate a week was dying from neglect or malpractice." news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_on_re_us/california_prisons
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Post by mscody on Oct 7, 2008 12:35:19 GMT -5
This is a sensitive topic or me as I don't have healthcare of any type.....It is offered through my shelter but even at that- I cannot afford it. It sux when one has to choose between healthcare and the light bill-thats how it is for me as I am sure with menay. I think its crap. Yet- if I were incarcerated I would have top quality care. WTF? Irritates me to no end that criminals, immigrants and so on get more than a hard working single mom like me ( even tho mine is 20) and so many others. I will never forget when I first took custody of my daughter when she was 11- Ijust started out at the shelter- trying to build my career. I went to try to get some kind of help (medicaid) and they said I made too much money!!! I was making $950 a mnth back then!!! WTF AGAIN! But yet I saw some lady with 3 kids in diapers and one on the way roll out with food stamps-Medicaid adn other financial assistance jus for having so many dang kids! Sorry, but I am a firm believer in birthcontrol and would never have kids just for that end of the year earned income credit and allt hat other crap just to drive a caddy- In which MANY in this town do..You will see em' roll up to renew their stuff in a car with spinners for rims...takl about the system needing an overhaul! Anyhoo- sorry I get on a rant with this type of stuff-especially healthcare. Even tho I don't need financial assistance now, still burns I disagree about it!
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rose22
Hero in training
Posts: 15
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Post by rose22 on Oct 16, 2008 15:38:57 GMT -5
Hmmmm. See legal immigrants get nothing. I am a legal permanent resident. I have to pay taxes and am eligible for nothing should i need it. My hubby and I had to pay out a lot of money just for my immigration papers too. We can't have kids yet because we just can't afford the expense of me giving birth here. Even with medical insurance, they don't cover you for a year for pregnancy and even then you end up with a $5,000 deductable. I can't afford the monthly cost of decent insurance (wasn't even eligible for me to purchase until after living here for a year) and with deductables like that, i may as well be putting the monthly fee in the bank when i can afford to pay it. Where i come from, we don't pay that much more in taxes than you guys and we get health care for free. In fact, every mother receives the Us dollar equivalent of $400 for every baby born and is given a healthy eating allowance throughout the pregnancy now. I think congress is throwing the money away somewhere to be honest. I think it is disgraceful that the prisoners are dying because of the lack of medical attention. You wouldn't let an animal suffer like that, let alone a human being.
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Post by eileen on Oct 17, 2008 0:26:37 GMT -5
I understand the anger these things cause and I too have no health insurance. I have been married 27 years and have had insurance for only 6 of those years. I don't know how often I struggled about when to take my kids to the doctor or not. It took me almost a year to pay off my first child's delivery, and she left the hospital at 8 hours old. It is sick.
It seems that so many people and politicians run up menace of socialism every time health benefits are mentioned like it would be the end of America.
You won't be able to choose your doctor, you will have to wait to get treatment .
I don't care who the doctor is at this point, and I certainly would not mind waiting if I knew I would get to see someone sometime. I have watched my husband suffer for years in pretty serve pain. We still don't know for sure exactly what causes it because we could never afford the MRI's that some doctors say would be definitive. It is a mess.
But my point here is that most of us that can't afford insurance are always being pitted against illegal immigrants or prisoners that get medical care. They are not the whole of the problem. They really are not. It is the insurance industry whose greed allowed them to judge literally who lives and dies. It was the Medical Association who back in the 90,s lied about what the Clinton's were trying to accomplish with universal health care. It is our leaders who do not have the collective backbone to see that their citizens are going bankrupt, getting sicker and even dying because this problem can't be solved. Why can England, Canada, Germany, Japan and even Hong Kong tackle the problem. Because we are afraid of socialism. We are not going to become socialists just because we are willing to care about the health of our citizens. (besides everyone knows real socialism doesn't work)
As for prisoners, you can't let people die just because they are in prison. Not everyone in prison is a monster. They can be made to work and possibly help pay for their treatments. Better yet quit putting so many in prison. House arrest with mandatory work assignments could be used to much greater extent. Then they too would have to provide their own health care like the rest of us.
I just hope that we as a people can solve a problem without trying to find scapegoats, it is just to easy and it stops us from focusing on answers. Good luck to all of us that are still trying to make it under very hard and sometimes scary circumstances.
No disrespect intended to anyones else view, it is just the way I see it.
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Post by Connie on Oct 25, 2008 23:15:50 GMT -5
No disrespect taken. I truly don't think many people understand the dilemna. Not long ago, Obama said something about people making 150,000 a year being rich.. there was a huge hoopla with people saying that isnt' rich. I just think they really don't see what he is saying.
From my point of view:
Someone makes 150,000 a year... lets say they pay 50% in taxes.. HUGE unrealistic number.. but that drops their income to 75,000 a year.. They pay 500 a month in health insurance.. that's 6000 a year dropping their take home to 69,000 a year.. lets even say they have enough medical issues they have to pay their 5000 deductible... that brings their take home to 64000 a year..
Now lets do that for the people who initially make around 30,000 a year and also do not qualify for any assistance... that same 6000 drops their income to 24000 a year.. the 5000 deductible drops it to 19000 a year! Try to pay rent, make a car payment and pay utilities AND buy groceries on 19000 a year... IF you are lucky enough to only pay $800 a month in rent or your mortgage that equates to another 9600 a year off your income, making your yearly take home 10400, (hope my math is right)... then you have a car payment of $400 a month.. opps now we are down to around 5600 left for the YEAR.. and you have to buy groceries, pay for utilities, gas, insurance etc... It's NOT happening...
Tell me someone making 150,000 a year isn't rich.. I will disagree... they have the money, can they budget it better than those of us making 30k a year? Apparently not.
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Post by chelle on Oct 27, 2008 20:03:49 GMT -5
I dont have insurance. and I dont expect anyone to pay for me to get it. period. I also dont think I should pay a dime in taxes to house an inmate. I dont care what they did. make them work. But you know what , inmates CANT be made to work. they can VOLUNTEER for certain duties, yet they CANT be worked in under 50* weather, over 90* weather, in the rain, more than a certain amount of hours, (usually between 7 and 3) (BUT the same people guarding them are expected to be outside, in ALL weather, rain included, walking the permamiter, and work 12 hour shifts.) our federal court system decided a while back that they are basicly to be treated better than a normal working person. And they can not be made to be self seficiant (sp), that is against their civil liberties. (ie, raise all their food, butcher and raise all their meat, build all their own furnature etc)
In that same suit it was decided that if ONE inmate had access to a TV, all of them HAD to have access, to the same TV. same channels, same everything.
sorry, I lost my train of thought. OH, I dont have insurance, and I personally DONT think that because someone went to college, got a good job, and makes more money than I do, they should have to kick in to pay for me to have it. Its my own fault that I didnt better myself. Not theirs. I will muddle through, like we have all done for centuries. I might die young due to lack of health care, but that is NOT joe the plumbers fault. I make sure my children are healthy and well. and I stress to them the importance of an education.
BR actually had insurance at the prison. but that was all we had. He literly made less in a month than he can make in a 2 week paycheck at his current job, and we didnt have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. he bettered himself, got a CDL and a better job. We are NOT high on the hog, but we did that to ourselves.
I have a 'care credit' credit card. If I have to do something dental or doctor wise, I use it, and pay it off, high intrest rate and all. One day we might get a few things paid off, and then we can afford insurance. But I will not ask someone with more income to help me live better. Thats not their place.
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Post by Connie on Oct 28, 2008 16:03:20 GMT -5
Oh man this is such a tough topic for me! This is at least the third time today that I've heard the whole thing about successful people shouldn't have to pay for those who aren't.
It's NOT about that and I so wish I could just put up huge bulletin boards stating as much..
WHY on earth do ONLY successful people DESERVE health care? I don't want anyone to GIVE me healthcare.. I just want it to be affordable for everyone.
If everyone goes to college and everyone is successful and rich, then WHO is going to be left to work in the fields so we can eat? Who is going to be left to serve us dinner when we do go out to eat? Who is going to be left to clean up after our kids at school? Who is going to be left to answer the phone when we call a company and need help? Who is going to be left to take care of our kids so WE can be successful and rich?
The AVERAGE American family makes $45 thousand dollars a year.. Why shouldn't the AVERAGE American family have access to health care?
Yes McCain wants to give a $5000 credit to everyone.. big whoop.. that doesn't even cover the normal deductible for a year.. it sure doesn't cover the monthly expense for a typical family.
We are apparently perfectly willing to let the Government regulate the banks and protect our money but we won't allow them to protect our Health and our lives?
Again.. I don't want anyone to pay my doctor bill. I DO want the health care industry and the pharmaceutical companies regulated so that I can afford health care.. It's pretty obvious the govt isn't willing to go in that direction (do you KNOW how much money they would lose if they did?).. so the alternative is a National Healthcare System... and no it doesn't have to be like Canadas...
Let's listen to Rose and see what Englands is like.. apparently they don't have to pay much more in taxes and if I can pay another $100 a month in taxes and help the entire Country have access.. you can bet your britches I'm all for it.
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Post by havingfunnow on Oct 28, 2008 18:34:33 GMT -5
Hmmm... Very difficult topic, very difficult to see. I have friends who are doctors and nurses, and like all professions, some make more than others. What I find strange is that the medical professionals who make the most money are administrators, and not the care givers. There are many doctors, and nurses who have switched over to the administrative side of health care in search of the almighty dollar. There are also many people, who have started out in medical records or billing, that have furthered their education, and are now in medical administration. These people are not trained care givers, but make policy that care givers have to follow. The bottom line is 'the bottom line' or is it profitable. Federal laws have had to be enacted to protect people from inhumane treatment e.g. women-in-labor, people in cardiac arrest, bleeding, etc... being denied service as they had no insurance. I personally detest the HRIT degree, as it implies that the person is a Human Resource and Information Technology expert. But that is a whole can of worms I won't open right now. There can be no doubt that pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies are out to make as much money as they can, and they have powerful lobbies to defend their interest. However, that doesn't make them any different than any other company in a capitalist society, like Oil companies. Isn't it amazing the way gas prices have fallen? The laws of supply and demand in action. Doesn't it make sense then, that if everyone stops getting sick, then the price of healthcare will fall also? Power to the SURGANS <== cheap plug! Alas, supply and demand really doesn't apply to healthcare. So what is the answer? It is not as simple as having universal healthcare. If it was, why would so many well-to-do foriegners come to the US for advanced healthcare? The United States does have universal healthcare systems. The Indian Health Service (IHS) is for Native Americans. The Veterans Administrationis for veterans. I am eligible for both, and find major problems with both systems. The IHS is for Native Americans that can prove their lineage, and services offered depend on a variety of factors, mainly living in an area where services are available. All the hospitals and clinics I know of, have had to cut back the services offered, as they are dealing with a growing population and static budget. I know of an administrator who won a very substantial monetary award for creatively cutting back on services offered - very sad. The Veterans Administration has also been cutting back on services, and also cutting back on veterans eligible for the remaining services offered. This has been happening for years. A former Democratic president, who liked aides and shady real estate deals, wanted to open up the Veteran Administration hospitals to all low income people in the US. Since the VA services were already over-burdened, needless to say, he received a bloody nose from the DAV, VFW, American Legion and pretty much ensured that veterans voted Republican the next election. Both of the Government healthcare systems have problems. I have a huge problem with the fact that a certain candidate is proposing to institute Universal Healthcare, when the Government can't make the ones they have work now. On the other hand, what we have now is not working either. And giving $5,000 to people for healthcare is not going to help, if unemployment continues to run rampant. The $5,000 is not going to go to healthcare, if someone can't feed their family of put a roof over their heads. Hasn't anyone in either party heard of Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs Time to switch tracks... As far as the healthcare given in California prison systems. A lot of this could be addressed by handling the immigration problem. The statistics of prisoners who are illegal is pretty staggering, and not just California, but all of the border states. Personally, I think a universal healthcare system would exacerbate the immigration problem - making this a real conundrum. The majority of people in prison will tell you that they don't deserve to be there, while in only a few cases, it is true. More people die on the streets homeless, than in the prison systems, and I feel sorrier for the homeless. By now you will realize that I have no answers to this, but I am just giving you a few things to think about. Have a good day, ;D Louis
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Post by tara on Oct 28, 2008 18:53:22 GMT -5
Oh man this is such a tough topic for me! This is at least the third time today that I've heard the whole thing about successful people shouldn't have to pay for those who aren't. It's NOT about that and I so wish I could just put up huge bulletin boards stating as much.. WHY on earth do ONLY successful people DESERVE health care? I don't want anyone to GIVE me healthcare.. I just want it to be affordable for everyone. If everyone goes to college and everyone is successful and rich, then WHO is going to be left to work in the fields so we can eat? Who is going to be left to serve us dinner when we do go out to eat? Who is going to be left to clean up after our kids at school? Who is going to be left to answer the phone when we call a company and need help? Who is going to be left to take care of our kids so WE can be successful and rich? The AVERAGE American family makes $45 thousand dollars a year.. Why shouldn't the AVERAGE American family have access to health care? Yes McCain wants to give a $5000 credit to everyone.. big whoop.. that doesn't even cover the normal deductible for a year.. it sure doesn't cover the monthly expense for a typical family. We are apparently perfectly willing to let the Government regulate the banks and protect our money but we won't allow them to protect our Health and our lives? Again.. I don't want anyone to pay my doctor bill. I DO want the health care industry and the pharmaceutical companies regulated so that I can afford health care.. It's pretty obvious the govt isn't willing to go in that direction (do you KNOW how much money they would lose if they did?).. so the alternative is a National Healthcare System... and no it doesn't have to be like Canadas... Let's listen to Rose and see what Englands is like.. apparently they don't have to pay much more in taxes and if I can pay another $100 a month in taxes and help the entire Country have access.. you can bet your britches I'm all for it. Well put Connie, I agree. The whole situation is disgusting. Universal healthcare may not be the answer but I find it very sad that instead of thinking of alternatives or how to make it better all you hear is well look what this place and this place are like..... why can't it be improved, where is the rule that it has to be EXACTLY like somewhere else. Why not take a look at what works and does not work around the world and come up with a better plan.
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Post by havingfunnow on Oct 28, 2008 21:39:09 GMT -5
Well pardon me the heck out of me. I thought we could express our views here. Being Native American, dealing with and working for the Indian Health Service has qualified me to speak about it. I am also a service-connected disabled veteran and have dealt and worked with the Veterans Administration, which has also qualified me to speak about it. I have seen the short-comings in both systems, and wanted to mention them; since a candidate has made it part of his platform. I never claimed to have the answers, but I do claim to have experience with the systems I mentioned. I am truely sorry that I don't have workable alternatives or solutions, but then again niether does anyone else. Which is my point! If its not broken, then don't fix it. Conversely, if it's broken, then fix it. Louis Talking about finger pointing...
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Post by Connie on Oct 28, 2008 22:00:04 GMT -5
Louis.. I don't think she meant you personally.. that IS all we hear about and you are certainly not the only one saying it. This is the place to speak your mind and as you said.. we need to switch tracks one way or the other..
No the VA system doesn't work, the welfare system doesn't work, McCains $5000 a year won't work... we need CHANGE... Is Obama going to bring that change? I don't know and I highly doubt it.. I was hoping that Hillarys system would get pushed through years ago and that didn't happen.. Her new system was laughable and I wouldn't have voted for her based on it alone.. it was scary..
Yes there are answers but the politicians don't seem to want to hear them.
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Post by eileen on Oct 28, 2008 22:40:20 GMT -5
Keep making noise. Vote, write letters, write letters to the editors, just don't give up. Its dramatic, but in truth it is a life and death problem, along with the problems of the war, the loss of constitutional rights, the total abdication of oversight of the public good. No matter who wins it will take some time even if all the right decisions are made from Jan 20th there on. We are in that much of a mess.
My biggest problem is setting one group against another. There has been a lot of corporate welfare in this country over the years. The thing is corporate welfare makes them richer most of the time. Welfare tends to keep people poor most of the time. And those of us in the middle, and there are a whole lot of us just keep struggling. Government has always been in the business of redistributing wealth. We as citizens need to keep a better eye on the people we send to Washington, and local government who are supposed to spread it around wisely.
Back to prisoners, I wouldn't change places with a prisoner no matter how much medical attention they get. And I stand by my previous opinion of our very flawed prison system. The best part of most spiritual beliefs is that we all help each other out, we do what's right and fair to the best of our ability. We look after each other. That is the biggest missing piece in Washington, too often they forget they were sent there to look after us and not just their own re election.
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Post by tara on Oct 29, 2008 8:45:40 GMT -5
Well pardon me the heck out of me. I thought we could express our views here. Being Native American, dealing with and working for the Indian Health Service has qualified me to speak about it. I am also a service-connected disabled veteran and have dealt and worked with the Veterans Administration, which has also qualified me to speak about it. I have seen the short-comings in both systems, and wanted to mention them; since a candidate has made it part of his platform. I never claimed to have the answers, but I do claim to have experience with the systems I mentioned. I am truely sorry that I don't have workable alternatives or solutions, but then again niether does anyone else. Which is my point! If its not broken, then don't fix it. Conversely, if it's broken, then fix it. Louis Talking about finger pointing... Wow, I wasn't directing that at you or anyone. Just saying that the loudest voices (and again not you or anyone in particular) just go on and on about the flaws.... no one is offering viable solutions. I am sick to death of hearing (and this goes beyond healthcare) that wont work because it doesn't work here, here and here. Why not take a look at what doesn't work and work on solutions to make it better? The fact that none has answers was my point, I was agreeing with you, but even if I wasn't I don't see the problem, like you said, just expressing my view. I am completely okay with you or anyone else disagreeing with me. I certainly do not think the system flaws fall directly on your shoulders, lol. I apologize for whatever it was that made you think I was attacking you, when in fact I was, just like you, saying what I thought. Again, I'm sorry.
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Post by chelle on Oct 29, 2008 12:36:40 GMT -5
I agree connie. there needs to be something. what? who knows.
But I do know that I can get insurance for about 500.00 a month. Thats 6,000.00. I can afford the grand. (or your 100.00 a month) yes I would still have to pay for deductables and such. and a complete overhaul of the system needs to be done.
But I would prefer that instead of the goverment taking it over, that someone stands up and opens a company that is competative. maybe a co-op. not a total for profit org.
I see me falling through the cracks if we get the universal heath care. cause inevitably I will fit into the 'can afford it' part. but I cant. so I will get the 'fine'.
Part of the 5,000.00 plan is to open it up across the state lines. everyone gets the same rates. you can pick and choose. DO I think it will be perfect for everyone ?? HECK NO.
I just feel that the goverment is trying to stick their fingers in too many pies. Now we will have to have a huge building just to run health care. thousands of people working there, to screw up one more goverment program.
And belive me, I think the bail out is pure butkis. WRONG. a free market society needs to remain a freemarket society. Unfortunatly it was a 'nessesity' cause banks were encouraged to loan to people who couldnt afford what they bought.
I was BLESSED. I was in the process of building a home, was given an OUTRAGOUS loan amount. Seriously. BR made LESS than he does now, and they were giving me a mortgage that is almost 3 times what mine is now. At the time we could have done it, because he was looking to move to this job and make a little more. the original amount was more than I wanted, and our house wasnt quite that high to build. Still high, but not 50% of our income.
Rita came through and screwed it all up. Thank GOD. because alot has happened. and even not accepting the amount they approved us for, but lowering it with a smaller house, I would have lost it, between loosing my job, BR not working for various reasons throughout the years, having a new baby, and various other issues, I can barely afford my current note.
I just feel there isabetter way than our current tax sysytem. I am a firm believer in the fair tax deal.
And I keep going back to hubby and BIL working their butts off in a month long period period. They worked 16-17 hours a day, for 29 days. They both made roughly the same amount. With in a few dollars of each other (one ran a few more miles than the other one.) The first check they each brought home, BR's first check had over 800.00 held out in taxes. Then I decided to check his exemptions. He had only claimed 4. So I upped it using the w4 worksheet. Brother in law lost 989.00. cause he has no kids. The second check was a little better. about 450.00 in taxes. Brother in law paid pert near 1000.00 again.
So the payperiod BIL worked 12-13 hour days, 5 days a week. and hauled LESS oil. he made MORE money. by about 3 bucks. but more money just the same. they held out a little less.
The really sad part? BIL will NOT get any of that back in refund next year. He will end up paying in on top of what they just took from him.
So, he cut production, he doesnt haul as much oil, doesnt make as much money before taxes and doesnt pay in as much. Sister in law looked at her paycheck. Hers was not as drastic, but, it ended up with the same theme. She too cut her hours. Now they make almost the same, and dont do near as much. So, who benefits? Not their employeers, not the goveremnt. not even them. Maybe thats why I am SOOO against taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Cause we aint rich, By any stretch of the imagination. Yes I have things I shouldnt that I am in debt over. But, I am not even 'working rich' and I stand to loose more money in their tax rollbacks and such.
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Post by mscody on Oct 31, 2008 17:05:51 GMT -5
I agree with you Connie-I myself only make take home about 23,000 per year-deduct rent, city uitilities, gas in the car, groceries and oghter things it leaves me with maybe 1$ at the end of the year- especially with they way things have increased on a dang weekly basis! Leaves no room for expensive health ins. We do need change- it is just so hard to believe what anyone says these days as it seems everyone is the divil in sheeps clothing...
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