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Post by weebitty on Dec 6, 2008 14:59:14 GMT -5
It has just been annouced we have bailed out another failed company. I think they should have been made to file chapter 11 and reorganized that way. I am betting they arn't going to make that many changes. I am tired of this bail out crap we are doing. The auto industry isn't the only thing hurting. And it is much worse than we thought. There are 550,000 full time jobs lost but it doesn't tell you that there are over 600,000 part time jobs lost so it is worse than we are lead to believe. We cannot trust our government any longer they have lied and stolen from the american people for too long. This is just my humble opinion. I have written to my congressman repeatedly and they said on the news last night that it was over 60% of the american people didn't want this bail out. Congress really listened didn't they
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Post by havingfunnow on Dec 7, 2008 1:57:29 GMT -5
In part I agree, but the complete failure of at least two of the big three American automakers would be really devasting with vast repercussions. So something has to be done. GM and Chrysler have asked for immediate and continuing loans, while Ford has asked for future backup, in case things get worse. I don't have any answers, it is all a big mess.
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Post by Connie on Dec 8, 2008 13:21:12 GMT -5
It's heartbreaking in a way.. NOTHING is going to change because of any of the bailouts.. haven't we already seen that? Companies that can't be competitive and make it, need to file bankruptcy, no matter how big they are. If we are going to bail out the bigwigs, then we need to bailout everyone.. we can't do that because it wouldn't change anything either. The economy WILL go into a depression and all we are doing is putting the inevitable off and putting the Country in bigger jeopardy because of it. That's my opinion anyway
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Post by eileen on Dec 8, 2008 16:49:16 GMT -5
Back in the eighties I worked at the GM Linden NJ plant. There was this one car called the 'Berlitz', I think the was the name. It had a stainless steal 3/4 roof. It was so stupid. The cars were so big. And the assembly line was set up so that about 1/4 of the worker, worked there butts off while the others had it relatively easy. It was a weird place to work. Paid great though. Those were the good days and I guess they thought they would never end. The American Auto maker both management and labor got kind of arrogant in the 70's and 80's. Labor caught on to the bad news first since the Big Three's only answer to anything was lay off workers. I don't no whats right about this, but I don't think losing all the jobs it would cost to let them fail can be absorbed. Not to mention all the suppliers and after market folks. I even sold Nissan for awhile; dealerships hire a whole lot more people than you would think. I do know that there better be more oversight than with the banks. No one knows where that money is going. It sure is going to be a bumpy ride for awhile.
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Post by Connie on Dec 9, 2008 23:02:42 GMT -5
So if we bail out the automakers because of potential job losses... shouldn't we also bail out the thousands of other companies going under? I realize it is EASY to see that if one big automaker goes out of business or even all three that we are talking about many thousands of jobs..
HOWEVER.. if you take ALL The little companies going under... we are STILL talking about many thousands of jobs... Just because it is EASIER to see the numbers in one case.. shouldn't be a reason for a bailout...
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Post by havingfunnow on Dec 12, 2008 0:13:10 GMT -5
As of this posting, everything has changed, and now there is no $14 billion bailout. I wonder what will happen with Wall Street in the morning. I find it amazing that the UAW has decided nothing is better than having their members take pay cuts that would level out the US wages to compete with Toyota, etc... Does anyone else wonder what the salaries of these UAW officials are? GM and Chrysler have warned they don't have enough to continue operations without the bailout. I don't think that during a recession is quite the right time for a union to try and flex its muscles. Right now, I think that they have dug their own grave, and pulled their members in with them. Dec 12 I researched the UAW officer salaries and found the following: 1 x International President $144,733 1 x International Secretary-Treasurer $133,891 5 x International Vice Presidents $129,656 9 x International Executive Board Members $118,813 So it is not the salaries, but the undisclosed benefits they want. I couldn't find how much their pensions were, but UAW President Ron Gettelfinger was worried about it in his Nov 18th testimony, saying "The liquidation of the Detroit-based auto companies would also have devastating consequences for millions of retirees. The retirees from these companies and their spouses and dependents – about one million persons – could suffer sharp reductions in their pension benefits. And they would face the loss of their health insurance coverage – an especially devastating blow to the roughly 40 percent who are younger than 65 and thus not yet eligible for Medicare. In addition, if the automakers’ pension plans are terminated, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC) would be saddled with unprecedented liabilities. To prevent the collapse of the PBGC, which would jeopardize the retirement security of millions of workers and retirees, the federal government would have to provide a huge bailout for the pension guarantee program. Furthermore, under existing law, the federal government would be liable for a 65% tax credit to cover the health care costs of pre-Medicare auto retirees costing about $3 billion per year." I find it extremely interesting that he says the government has to cover the pension program. The PBGC is supposed to guarantee pensions, but it is only partial. www.pbgc.gov/UAW assts are 1.23 billion, but they are not doing anything to help its members. In the event of a total collapse of the American auto industry, they have made sure they are going to be sitting pretty.
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Post by Connie on Dec 15, 2008 11:28:52 GMT -5
They are still looking at some kind of bailout aren't they? I personally don't think the pensions should be affected for the already retired. They put in their time and earned it but I also realize if a company goes out of business they can't really pay their pensions anymore.
So if the PBGC is supposed to cover pensions, what is the problem? I understand it's only partial but here we go again with companies that can't do what they have promised to do and want to be bailed out.
WHY should the government bailout PBGC? Why are they making promises they can't keep?
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Post by havingfunnow on Dec 15, 2008 12:34:26 GMT -5
PBGC is a govenrment agency, not part of the auto-industry. Kind of like FDIC, FSLIC insuring accounts (up to $100,000) in the failed banks. I think Gettelfinger was saying that the PBGC doesn't have enough funding allocated to it to cover the results if the US automakers are allowed to fail. Lemme see... His logic (on Nov 18th) was that if the government didn't give a $25 billion bailout, then it would have to spend $3 billion per year after that. Maybe for the first year, but the amount would drop every year after that due to mortality attrition (US avg. life expectancy 77.8 years) and the fact that men generally die earlier than women; the majority of auto workers have been men. Now it seems that other funds are going to be used to bailout the automakers anyway, but with less restrictions on them. I just hope that this serves as a wake-up call to the big three, and they restructure. However, they are going to be crippled by the existing UAW contract until 2011, so I really don't see much hope in their success. Their costs cutting will have to come from using even 'cheaper' components, which will translate into a poorer product. Reminds me of a Gateway computer, cheap components, cheap price, lots of problems.
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Post by Connie on Dec 21, 2008 20:33:28 GMT -5
I still say "it's a bandaid"... They might be postponing the inevitable for a year or so but if they don't make the changes they SHOULD have made three years ago... it's not going to make a difference in the final outcome.
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