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Post by Organized Chaos on Nov 14, 2008 18:55:53 GMT -5
Are there "rules" to marriage? Those of you FOR same sex marriage say there should not be. So if there are no "rules" that say marriage has to be between a man & a woman, where does it stop? What about the man who wants multiple wives or the woman who wants multiple husbands? What about relatives getting married? Are you against any of those? If you are, you're leaving out certain minorities. Are any of you who are FOR same sex marriage against abortion? You're saying the Govt. doesn't have the right to tell gay people they don't deserve the same rights as straights. But if you're against abortion, what you are saying is that the Govt. has the right to tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body & what's inside of it. With everyone talking about today being a great day in our history because an African American is now President... I can't help but notice the unbelievable irony that on the same day people voted for a minority president, they signed a proposition that so obviously violates the rights of other minorities. Actually a black man is not "now President." Despite how the media portrays it today, he won't be till January. I don't think the gov. has the right to say who can love who. The Govt. is not saying who can love who. No one is saying who can love who. The Govt. isn't saying anything...it's the people who spoke up. Louis kind of said what I was going to say. You're talking about America and rights as an American, etc. It is those very rights as Americans that gave them the opportunity to cast their vote on the matter. The California majority has spoken and now many of you think the system is broken because it didn't go YOUR way.
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Post by tara on Nov 14, 2008 20:49:41 GMT -5
True, the majority did win. I think it was about hate and ignorance from the beginning, the whole proposal- not foul just because it passed, foul all around. Just shows the hoards of spiteful hateful people willing to come out and cast a vote against something that has absolutely no effect on them what so ever. I have heard the arguments I have heard all about how peoples twisted relationship with their gods made them vote for it but seriously how does a couple marrying have any effect on anyone else? Does anyone really think they will be standing outside heaven and god is going to say well you didn't speak out against gay marriage so go take the next elevator down? It's just stupid and again it's hatred in the purest form. I am not gay, I do have some family and friends that are but to me this about tolerance and acceptance, things that I think are important to pass on to my kids. I can only feel sadness for those kids who get the opposite... those parents are just continuing to highlight what is wrong with this world.
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Post by tara on Nov 14, 2008 21:12:16 GMT -5
I would also question the amount of voters who voted the way they did because their religious leaders flat out LIED to them, claiming they would be jailed. Now that I think is foul, perhaps they should be jailed for lying to further their own agenda.
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Post by havingfunnow on Nov 14, 2008 22:50:00 GMT -5
When in doubt - Wikipedia! (sorta kinda - *special*) Due to the overwhelming popularity of this issue, I searched and found what I consider a bipartisan article: ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=California_Proposition_8_(2008)OK, now everyone read, form their own opinion, and fight fairly! As far as religious leaders saying their followers would be jailed if they didn't vote a certain way - I did not find that. I did find a statement about a Swedish priest who had been supposedly jailed there for not performing a same sex marraige (popularized on The View, but found baseless). I do know of ministers who said "Vote the Bible", but I think that's their job. Put another log on the fire...
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Post by tara on Nov 14, 2008 23:11:01 GMT -5
Do I have to add anything? I got a page that say there is no text? But, it could be the operator.....
I first heard of prop 8 months ago in a yahoo group. A member from CA brought it up, on how she always figured it didn't affect her until her preacher one Sunday morning told them of how if prop 8 wasn't passed he (and others) would be jailed if they refused to go against their beliefs. Then 4 others said the same thing. I have seen it over and over in the past week.
I have no issue with them saying vote the bible ( I agree, it's their job), my thoughts on the bible and religion aside. BUT many of them did claim they would be jailed and people ran with that, a lie, that I take issue with. I see nothing holy about lying in order to have things the way you think is 'right'.
I thought the system was broken long before this, lol. I still do not see what is so threatening about gay marriage. Does two men or two women being married somehow make one man and one woman less married?
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Post by tara on Nov 14, 2008 23:18:31 GMT -5
Oh... I am not against multiple wives and/or husbands. Personally it's not for me, I do not share well with others. Same goes if you want to marry your cousin, go for it it does not effect me in way shape or form. If we are talking about consenting adults I don't see the problem. But that isn't the issue, we are talking about human beings wanting something basic and simple, a privilege many of us take for granted.
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Post by havingfunnow on Nov 14, 2008 23:42:40 GMT -5
I fixed the link - the (2008) was messing it up It is a good article and I learned alot. As far as what the preacher said, it was a position taken up by some religious leaders, saying it 'may' happen if they refuse to perform same sex marraiges. Alarmism Yes. Going to happen No. There is a separation of Church and State, and the Government can not force ministers to perform marraiges that are not allowed. A good example would be the Catholic church - same sex marraige - big no-no, never going to happen. There are Catholic priests who refuse to perform standard marraiges, if the couples have not met the prerequisites given to them. The Government doesn't send them to jail. However, there are some religions that will allow same sex marraiges, and if a minister declines to perform the ceremony - that religion will deal with them, not the Government.
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Post by tara on Nov 15, 2008 10:42:41 GMT -5
Thanks, it was a good article, I found the bold part particularly disturbing
Arguments in favor of Prop. 8
Notable arguments in favor of Prop. 8 include:
* It protects the free expression of religion, as supporters of Proposition 8 were worried that Gay Rights advocates were not affording them the same courtesy--to live and believe as they please--as the Gay and Lesbian community was/is demanding.[47][48] * Supporters of Proposition 8 says that their support of Proposition 8 is not based on an attack on the gay lifestyle, but is rather their effort to preserve what they hold as core values surrounding a vision of traditional marriage. * "It overturns the decision of four activist Supreme Court judges in ruling unconstitutional a ballot initiative previously approved by the people." * "It protects our children from being taught in public schools that “same-sex marriage” is as legitimate as marriage between two people of opposite genders."[49],[50] * "Proposition 8 will protect religious universities, adoption providers, psychologists, doctors, and photographers from prosecution for denying services to same-sex couples for any reason, including their religious convictions." [51]
That is beyond scary and completely goes against everything decent. So it is okay to discriminate based on religion or race if the person is gay? What is the point of worrying over other people morality? Does it make you less moral not to judge? I guess I just don't get it. I also don't get the teaching marriage in school part, granted it's been a while, but I don't remember being taught anything about any kind of marriage in school. Is this normal? Do schools really teach marriage?
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Post by havingfunnow on Nov 15, 2008 11:28:40 GMT -5
While the part you bolded may seem extreme, it really isn't. It offers protection for professionals from those who seek money. We live in a litigious society, where there are people who are looking any reason to bring a lawsuit against someone (preferably a corporation). I just did a Google search on homosexual + lawsuit and got well over a million hits. Enough said Personally, I pick and choose who I will work for - there have been times I volunteered. If I don't like you, I won't work for you. Someone can try suing me over this, but I am not predjudiced. I will have a reason e.g. It was not a good day to go to jail for putting someone in the hospital. ;D
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Post by tara on Nov 15, 2008 12:05:13 GMT -5
I can not get on board with saying it is okay to discriminate against a group of people based on something so stupid as their sexual orientation. Don't get me wrong- I don't like most people, but I do so on an individual basis. I just do not think it is right to put in writing that it is okay to treat certain people like they are lesser human beings. Things like that almost make me wish there were a hell- so all these self righteous idiots in their judgment and speaking for god idiots can burn.
I think religion should be abolished. Nothing spreads fear and hatred quite like religion.
I'm not saying I think you should be forced to work for anyone you don't want to but to put into writing that it is okay to discriminate based on sexual orientation is sickening to me.
Honestly, I have no idea why this upsets me so much. I can debate politics and even religion without so much as batting an eye. I can accept differences but the unfounded hatred, it gets to me. It saddens me that my kids will grow up in a world surrounded in it.
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Post by havingfunnow on Nov 15, 2008 15:22:03 GMT -5
I am not as prejudiced as many people I know, but I can't help having some prejudices e.g. child molesters, spousal unit abusers, deserters, etc.. As a Native American, I have been the recipient of prejudice behavior; I find it pretty funny and ignorant. Prejudice is a learned behavior. This has been proven by putting a group of two year old children together to play, and they all get along. This behavior changes more and more, as the children grow older and are subject to more and more outside stimulus. Prejudice is inevitable, as we are influenced by what we are taught and experience. I always admired Josephine Baker and her Rainbow Tribe. I think there are unreasonable prejudices, under which racial color, sexual orientation, gender, disabled, etc... as those things can not be changed. (I know Michael changed color; that man who keeps having babies is a woman; some men become women and visa-versa; and Steve Austin and Jamie Summers became Bionic, but these were all exceptions ;D ). Depending on where you live, prejudice can be found. Black-White, Native American-White, Mexican-White, Black-Mexican, Mexican-Cuban, Vietnamese-Cambodian, etc... The enemy of my enemy is my friends, so there are some strange bedfellows out there. Sometimes the prejudice is so deeply ingrained it becomes a core value, and someone will die before changing it. However, sometimes the prejudice can be overcome, and that gives me hope e.g. A former Nazi works for the Simon Wiesenthal Center. But we need to get back to the focus of this thread 'Proposition h8ate'. For now the people have spoken, majority rules! Society does change, but it does so slowly, and there is resistance to change. It has not changed far enough yet, if ever; Haven't you heard? Obama may be the Anti-Christ. Louis What is sad, is that everyone abandoned Tara to me and OC
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Post by mscody on Nov 15, 2008 15:51:26 GMT -5
Uhhemmm..Tara-I'm with you!
<<<ducks down>>>>
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Post by tara on Nov 15, 2008 16:10:31 GMT -5
I have heard he may be the anti-christ, although it seems as likely to me that he may be the second coming of christ. Not that I believe that either one has or will happen.
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Post by Organized Chaos on Nov 15, 2008 19:26:28 GMT -5
I'm sickened by how the media has placed Obama on such a pedestal. The man is a virtual political nobody and simply because he's a good talker and the media managed to portray him as a rock star, all of a sudden he's the savior the our country. I think not. In a recent interview he said that "it may not happen in my first year, it may not happen in my first term" but it will get better. Careful choice of words there. He set himself up so when nothing happens during his term, it's not his fault because it takes time. Well no sh*t Sherlock.
Sorry, back to the topic at hand...
The reason I brought up abortion, multiple wives/husbands & marrying relatives is because there are people out there who are willing to fight for gay marriage but are against the other things and that's just hypocritical.
What I don't understand is, why is it ignorance to feel the way I feel (and all those that feel the same) but for you (and others) to feel the way you do, it's righteousness? Tara, you said the movement against gay marriage "is beyond scary and completely goes against everything decent." That's fine, that's your opinion, but as strongly as you feel that way, did you ever think that, to people who are against gay marriage, the act itself is what is scary & goes against everything decent? I know I'm not going to sway anyone's beliefs here, no more than you'll sway mine, but it's important to remember that just because you feel a certain way doesn't make it right. That's what drives me nuts about debates like this, about the religious right...it's there way or no way and that's ridiculous.
I've read the opinions and said my piece and I don't think this discussion will go anywhere so I'll just back out slowly.
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Post by tara on Nov 15, 2008 20:55:34 GMT -5
To put in writing that it is okay to discriminate against an entire group of people, people who have cause no harm to anyone else other than simply existing IS beyond scary. What I find really scary is that people don't understand hwy that is.... it's only okay when it's not you? (that is you in general, not you, you) Ignorance may be a poor word choice for lack of a better one. People tend to hate what they don't understand. Many went into this vote with misinformation. Lies that they believed because their spiritual leaders lied to them.
Even if homosexuals go against everything that is decent to you- how does it effect you? How are they hurting you in any way? Most people, I am sure, do something you disagree with, why is this so much worse? Even if your thoughts are based on religion, don't most of them teach that only god will judge? So why is it okay to do so? How does gay marriage threaten your marriage? Is a man and a woman somehow less married? I just don't get it. Why not let them have at it and let them answer for it? I have yet to hear an answer that makes any sense from anyone. This is just one topic that it's not just that I disagree with the other side it's that I can not understand the other side. That's not a dig, it's the truth. I guess the strength of my feelings come from the belief that most yes on 8 votes had little at all do with the sanctity of marriage and everything to do with bigotry.
As for Obama being the second coming of Christ, I was completely being sarcastic. I hardly think that not thinking the man is the anti-christ means I have him on a pedestal in any way shape or form.
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