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Post by tara on Dec 11, 2008 13:18:24 GMT -5
Ok I will put my two cents worth here. Bottom line no matter what it is. smoking, seatbelts, helmets, etc it is taking you personal freedom from you!!!!! Period. I let people do what they want but don't tell me I have to do, believe, or act the way YOU want me too. It is unfair that people impose their will on other people. Take God out of schools, Change the american way of life. BS!!!!!!!! I am a smoker and I respect other people but bottom lines you are taking choices away from other people and That is not fair!!!!!!!! The government interfers too much already. Quite giving them more power!!!!!! If you don't like smokers don't go to that resturant that is your RIGHT!!!!!! You have the right to make up YOUR OWN MIND BUT NOT MINE!!!! I can respect that- however taking god out of schools- you I am assuming are referring to a Christian God.... so you are basically saying it okay to step on freedoms as long as they aren't yours right? Why should a Jewish or Muslim student be subjected to only your religion. I am all for religion in schools- BUT by that I am ALL of them. If you want your kids taught the bible at school, you should be prepared to have them also taught from the Quran right? Maybe it was just my school but I was taught America gave religious freedom. Religion IS a choice. There is no American mandate on which God you have to worship. You do have the right to smoke- you do NOT have the right to make me breathe it. Here in Ny smoking is banned in bars and resturaunts with the exception of the Indian casino, so yes I feel I have every right to go to one and NOT be subjected to smoke. Yet weekly there is article about some business owner whining they got fined for smoking inside. They know it's a illegal, go outside and quit whining, or shut up and accept the fines.
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Post by weebitty on Dec 11, 2008 15:24:24 GMT -5
Ok lets clarify. I don't smoke in my house or my car. I smoke outside period. I have been doing that since my kids were little!!!! We have freedom here yes or use to. This is our country and was based on certain principals and beliefs which what made us strong. Foreigners do not have the right to change our way of life. If you want to practice your religion here please do so but don't tell me that my way of life offends you. Go back to your country if it offends you. but don't try and change our way of life!!!! Get the point. I agree with the welfare and drugs. It is their choice to do drugs but we should not support their habit. It was their choice right? If you don't like what is on tv change the dam channel and quite whining about it. People get ridiculous with their petty stuff. Worry about the senators that just gave themselves another raise!!!!! The auto bailout bill that is giving the superior court judges raises attached .
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Post by weebitty on Dec 11, 2008 15:49:27 GMT -5
ps. I just also thought I would add this it is required by the health dept to wash your hands after cigarette and bathroom breaks, If you are caught not doing that you are fined. also I know of a lot of resturants that went to the expense of building separate rooms with their own ventilation system to protect non smokers. Why wasn't that enough? Now that expense is down the tubes to those business owners. You can carry it too far and you have!!! Resturant owners are going to protect their business anyway that they can. If a worker doesn't comply they are gone. Simple again their choice. You can also ask for a waitress that doesn't smoke not all of them do. We often ask for a favorite waitress when we go to resturants why not ask for a non smoking one? ? See there are ways around it.
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Post by tara on Dec 11, 2008 16:03:22 GMT -5
Thanks for that.... I have no issue with people smoking outside (well except ones serving my food, lol) but I do not think it is okay to force other people in doors (or maybe even stuck in a line next to you outdoors... we went to six flags this summer and I can't tell you how awful it is as a recent ex smoker to be stuck 3 inches form someone blowing it in your face) to have to breath it. Not only employees but for employees as well. A waitress who doesn't smoke should not have to subjected or put her health at risk to earn a paycheck.
People of varying religions are not necessarily foreigners. America is a pretty diverse place. There are American Muslims, American Jews, American pagans. I think you said it- "If you want to practice your religion here please do so but don't tell me that my way of life offends you." It goes both ways and the same respect should be shown to non Christians as well. Religion can be freely taught in a private school, at home, in church... it is a personal thing that even members of the same group can not agree on, so how do you determine just what should be taught? School is for history and math, not bible studies. All I am saying is that if you want religion in schools it should be religion in general, perhaps an overview of all the major ones.... not just Christianity. Baptist? Catholic? Protestant? No doubt if they started teaching Judaism in school everyone who wants God back in school would have a coronary and say no way.
I am just typing, I enjoy the debate, I have no power to enforce anything I think, nor would I want to try to make everyone conform to my ways of thinking. What a boring time that would be. I have no issue with anyone religion or way of life either, as long as they aren't pushing it on me or my children... which is exactly what god in public school does.
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Post by eileen on Dec 11, 2008 16:29:22 GMT -5
Most of this is a knee jerk reaction to the high (obscenely) cost of health benefits. Employers are feeling the pinch like never before as are we all. An employer has the right to tell you what you can do(that's legal and in the scope of your job) while you are on the clock. What you do after should be no concern of theirs. As for the other, here we go attacking low and no income people as if they are all cheats and scoundrels. Why is that? I am not a smoker, but it is not a crime and since there is pretty much only smoking in certain places these days I think it has gone far enough. There are shared costs in doing what you want to do. There will always have to be a balancing act as to what is good for the many and what is good for the individual. But as usual in the US it is all about the money. It costs employers more for health care of smokers (statistically) so they try to ban it. I bet most of the owners are smokers themselves.
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Post by weebitty on Dec 11, 2008 16:34:32 GMT -5
you are right about being taught in schools. I don't think it should be taught in schools. Unless of course it is a course of study like theology. But the pledge of alligance is not religion in my mind. It is not to instill a belief it is just an alliance to the united states. If you want to build a church for your relgion go ahead but don't tell me I have to attend!!! I will defend your right to your opinion but not if you try to make me believe it or jeapardize my beliefs. There is a happy medium in almost everything. There are consequences to alot of things and people need to remember that. The choices you make are yours with the consequences it carries. But society has gone to far in alot of areas you have to admit. I still call a postal worker postman or a man hole cover. Big deal. But some people will come unglued because I did!!! I didn't need womans lib to tell me I was a female. It started out with the right ideas equal pay but then got ridiculous. I never forced my kids to believe in any certain religion and I told them that. Nor their political views. They make their own choices when it comes to that. I would only watch out if they got into trouble with stuff like the cults which you educate them. They have to learn just like we did. We survived and we arn't bad people. Some teachers will tell their kids to vote for so and so. That is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. I have had them come home and tell me that. I would explain to them that the teacher had no right to tell them who to vote for and they were to make up their own minds concerning that. It is just like we have kids that can't behave on school busses and so they are put on a "special" bus. Hell no they should be made to walk or parents should be responsible for getting them to school and correcting the behavior. They don't learn anything by doing it that way. Plus it is more money for busses and drivers and gas. Well thanks for listening. I am sure we all have our opinons. Maybe if you would have asked that smoker that you are allergic to cigarette smoke they would have moved away or put it out. Just ask nicely is all. Most people are more than happy to comply with requests. Just ask nicely is all.
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Post by tara on Dec 11, 2008 18:32:04 GMT -5
Unfortunately I am not surrounded by a whole lot of considerate teenagers regardless of how nicely you ask. I guess if I am standing in line with my kids, I don't think I should have to ask, but again that's me.
I did not mean to imply I have an issue with the pledge.... as far as that goes it is ONE word. Saying the word god is a ridiculous thing to pick out. When you said God in schools I misunderstood and thought you meant more than that (creationism, etc...)
Eileen, again it was not my intention to make all low income struggling people out to be scoundrels and cheats. I apologize for implying that I did. However the ones that are able bodied and lazy, using drugs that tax money pays for... yes I absolutely 100% think they are cheats, scoundrels and scum bags. I'm not sorry if that is offensive- it's how I feel. My whole point is that they take away from people who do want to better themselves and are willing to work to do it, not sit around waiting for the next hand out. I in no way think that everyone on welfare is a cheat. I fall into the low income can't get assistance category... my husband makes 20 dollars over the HEAP limit, there are weeks that we go without groceries so we can stay warm. I am lucky, I have places to turn during those weeks. Other people don't and it burns me that some lazy SOB doesn't want to bother to even look for a job and he is warm and well fed using his benefits to buys beer, cigarettes and drugs. I can't speak for everywhere but here it is possible to make more (after factoring in housing, medicaid and insurance) than a full-time worker. I think it encourages it. I think if are really trying to make it on your own.... drugs do not factor in there. I guess I can't see that other side, short of being a welfare collecting addict I don;t see how you can be against drug testing to receive welfare, I would love to hear why anyone is against it though, I will listen. I know it was stated above, although I am not sure I translated that as meant, that it keeps them from selling drugs but to me that is not a good enough reason to use tax dollars to support an illegal habit.
The only thing I can say about employers (and insurance was what I was trying to get to, but instead I typed thousands of words and missed my own point) is that employers provide health insurance that covers beyond what goes on at work. If I fall and break my arm at home insurance pays for it... you only smoke outside of work it is still stacking the odds against your health. Nothing is guaranteed but why shouldn't;t they have the option of going with the odds. It is a fact that smokers tend to sick more often an dare at higher risk than non smokers for certain diseases. I would rather see employers finding ways to control costs instead of sending the jobs to some other country where they don't have to provide benefits at all. Or just going out of business all together.
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Post by Connie on Dec 11, 2008 18:47:53 GMT -5
It is a fact that smokers tend to sick more often an dare at higher risk than non smokers for certain diseases. I would rather see employers finding ways to control costs instead of sending the jobs to some other country where they don't have to provide benefits at all. Or just going out of business all together. If we are going that route, and you are probably right.. then shouldn't employers also be saying that you can't ride a motorcycle, can't be a rock climber, can't be involved in ANY dangerous hobby whatsoever? Either way, it's taking away our rights, whether its my right to smoke or my right to take up weekend stock car racing. It's not the employers place to say I can't do what I want on my time off and I can't have a job if I have a dangerous hobby or habit. As for drug testing welfare recipients.. that is the BEST idea I have heard in a long long time.
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Post by tara on Dec 11, 2008 19:52:20 GMT -5
Very true, BUT there are safety measures for riding a motorcycle and rock climbing.... there is no safe cigarette. I would be interested in the numbers of deaths from motorcycles vs. smoking related ones though, lol. Plus for the most part those hobbies will affect YOU (well not you but the individual) if they go sour, I am sure sometimes others are injured or killed but most likely you crash your motorcycle you will be the one to suffer.... not everyone breathing around you.
I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with me, hell I can't even agree with myself- but I see why employers would want to utilize a no smoking policy for hiring employees. I can completely make sense of that. Sorry for showing off my inner ass, No kids and I have nothing to do but cause trouble : )
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Post by eileen on Dec 11, 2008 23:03:28 GMT -5
Tara, I have read to many of your post to think you meant anything bad. I know the frustration of being so close to the help. My husband and I many times said we worked to much to be poor but did not make enough to get sick without dying.
But as you know, You can make just a small amount over the limit and you lose all benifits, this terrifies many who are in this situation for many reasons. How do you give up benifits that keep you and your kids protected if you get a mimimuc wage job. It's crazy.
As for the insurance protecting you after work, your right, but that would mean they could tell you never to leave your house for fear you might fall down on the curb.
It is the health system and how we pay for it. It must be changed so everyone can be protected by it at resonable costs. Maybe smokers and extreme para gliders could pay a bit more.
Hey Connie, do you para glide too. Lets hope we all have a happy and healthy holiday season.
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Post by mscody on Dec 12, 2008 13:52:04 GMT -5
All I can say on this is freedom of choice. I am a smoke along with someof you, but smoke outside only. I think it is wrong to decline an American a job yet illegals have many-least where I'm at..
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Post by weebitty on Dec 12, 2008 16:05:27 GMT -5
Ok I will say that the reason for quitting smoking are legitimate. But if I choose to smoke that is ok too. Plain and simple it is discrimination if you want to call a spade a spade. I try to be a courtious smoker. If you are dealing with teenagers they don't think about anyone but themselves so you have to ask them. They are into the moment and can't think beyond their own noses!!!!! Sorry I know there are exceptions to the rule and I don't include them. I have seen high school grauates that can't take 10% off of an item!!!!! They should have learned that in grade school. I was refering to adults in line with you and it is the way that you ask. If you ask disgustedly or looking down on them then you will get a fight about it. Offer to hold their place in line if they would just move away is all. I wouldn't have problem with that at all. I agree welfare should be drug tested absolutely!!!!!!!!! I don't like welfare anyway. I have seen it abused too much it has to be revised drastically. thanks for reading. have a nice and safe christmas everyone in case I forget to say it.
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Post by Organized Chaos on Dec 12, 2008 16:25:50 GMT -5
Tara, first off let me just say that I'm picking up what you're putting down. I like a lot of the things you have to say and the way you say them. Probably because you throw it out there like I do many times. You are who you are and if others don't like it, tough cookies. Do you know why Popeye is such a good man? Because his favorite saying is "I am what I am." I agree that our rights as Americans are being trampled on more than ever and getting worse. At age 18 I can join the military and possibly go off to battle and get killed...at age 18 I can start smoking (legally) and kill myself with lung cancer...at age 21 I can start drinking alcohol (legally) and drink myself to death. If I can do all that, that could lead to my death, then why in the hell am I forced to wear my seatbelt no matter how old I am? I am not hurting any other driver on the road if I don't. In some cases wearing one could even kill me in a crash. Sure, there should be laws stating your kids should be buckled, and I say all the way up to age 18, but after that, we should have the right to choose. In IL I don't have to wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle (which I agree, shouldn't have to) but yet I have to wear my seatbelt...that's ridiculous. I do believe we should keep god out of public schools. As an Agnostic, borderline Atheist, and someone of more a scientific mind, I teach my son that he has the right to choose whether he wants to believe or not. I do not force my belief on him, I want him to choose. As he grows older, he'll be able to better make that choice. I do not need a bible pushing teacher forcing his/her beliefs off on my child or any other child. Now, I'm sure some of you would read this and immediately think I'm a bad person because of my non-belief in religion. That's fine, you can think that all you want, but if you think that without knowing me, you suck, plain & simple. I used to have faith & used to believe, but there came a point where I "saw the light" (in my own way). It does not make me any worse a person. I still have the same great morals & values that I was raised with and that's what matters. Someone mentioned cults. I see Christianity becoming somewhat of a cult. I mean no disrespect & I'll explain why I say this. When I drive to the neighboring county to go to a restaurant, fast food, or to a dept. store (I'm in a rural area and have to drive 20-30 min. for everything) I see new churches going up EVERYWHERE and they are all the size of warehouses. They have indoor pools, indoor basketball courts, skate parks, you name it. Everything you can possibly need to attract a younger demographic. Simply coming to church to worship isn't good enough anymore, they have lure children & teens in now. To me, that's no better than being lured in to a cult. Weebitty, you're right. It is our right & our choice to NOT go to a restaurant with smokers if we don't like smoke. But non smokers shouldn't be forced to stay out of what might be a restaurant they really like because the restaurant itself has a total disregard to what they call a "non smoking section." I mentioned it in an earlier post, most will put a short (maybe 3 or 4 foot) divider wall in between the sections. Oh they claim the smoking section has ventilation & intake fans, but that's a joke. How is it a non smoking section if a person 5 feet away from me is puffing like a choochoo and it's wafting to my table? And the special rooms for smokers that you mentioned are nowhere to be found around here. I've never seen such a thing no matter where I went, in all my travels within my State & to other states. Not saying they don't exist, but they don't appear to be common. I feel you're saying it's ok to tell us to stay out of a restaurant with smokers if we don't like it, but it's not ok to tell you (a smoker) not to smoke in there. I'm sorry, but if someone can't go an hour or 2 without a cigarette, you've got bigger problems than not being able to smoke in a restaurant. If you want to eat at a particular place, and they don't allow smoking, it's your choice to stay & eat or go somewhere else. Just as much it is our choice to eat in a place that does allow smoking. There's always a Yin & a Yang. I disagree with tara when she said parents should be fined for smoking with children in the car. That's their car, their time, their freedom. Is it healthy for the kids, no, but that's the parents' choice. To tell them they can't smoke in the same car as their kids is the same as saying they can't smoke in their house, in the same room with them. That's infringing on their freedoms way too much. Weebitty talked about foreigners not having the right to change our way of life. I agree, but unfortunately they do change our way of life. When you go to another country, they have their own sets of values & cultural behaviors that are more than likely drastically different than ours, but you're in their home country and you conform to it. While I was in Saudi Arabia, on a U.S. military base mind you, we still had to conform to their culture & way of life because we did have Saudi & Pakistani nationals working on our base. BUT, because we have disgustingly become such a politically correct nation, when foreigners come here, many times we still have to conform to THEIR way of life because otherwise we'd risk offending them. Boo hoo! You're in America dangit! Oh how horrible it is to tell a foreigner who chooses to live here to learn to speak English. But no, instead I have to press 1 for English no matter who I call. I have to search for 5 minutes for the English print on the goods I buy because the package is filled with every other language...oh THERE'S the English, way down there on the botton in fine print. And I know what some people are going to say. If you go overseas many signs, etc. also have English on them. THAT'S BECAUSE WE SPEND SO MUCH MONEY AS TOURISTS. If I'm going to MOVE to a foreign country, you can dang well bet I'm going to learn the language. Eileen, I don't think any of us were attacking low & no income people generalizing them all as cheats & scoundrels. I said myself, I'm a low to no income person right now and still don't think the scumbags who cheat the system should benefit from tax dollars just because they don't want to work when they're perfectly capable of doing so. Right now we're trying to get assistance with our power bill. Because the system is so clogged, more than likely with plenty of people who are just taking advantage, we have to wait a month just to be seen. Then it's another month to process. In those 2+ months that it takes just to go through the red tape, our power could be shut off by then. What sense does that make? And last but not least (sorry I know this was a doozy) politics in school. Politics in school isn't as big a no no TO ME as religion, but it can be problematic. My son's in the 2nd grade and this year his school held a mock Presidential election. One day when I picked him up he asked me who I was voting for. I told him I didn't really like either guy, but if I HAD to pick, It'd be McCain. He asks why, because he's voting for Obama, this that & the other. Long story short, he voted for Obama, Obama won in his class, and Obama won in the school. This school is grades K-5, but I don't know if Kindergarten & 1st participated. I doubt Kindergarten did. Regardless, how do young kids, especially 6-9 or so, know enough to overwhelmingly vote for ONE person over the other? The only way I can see how is that the faculty had a lot of influence on their decisions. Young minds are impressionable ones and it doesn't take much to get them to side one way or the other. That's when I have a problem with politics in school...when the teachers push their views off on the kids.
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Post by Connie on Dec 12, 2008 17:44:32 GMT -5
I have to agree with weebitty on this one.. simply because I don't think the govt should have a say in how a business owner operates his business when it comes to smoking. If you know a restaraunt is a smoking establishment and you don't like smoking.. you simply don't go.. for the same reason if I know an establishment is non-smoking and I want to smoke while Im out.. I wouldn't go to it.. I wouldn't petition them to become a smoking place.
When I go to a hotel.. I make a decision if I want to spend my money at a place that allows smoking or not.. if we have Katie with us.. it's a non-issue, but if it just us.. we LIKE going someplace we can smoke indoors... we don't even get to smoke indoors at home.. lol..
Here is a fun story about our own non-smoking law... when it was enacted, they banned smoking in restaurants, and bars like the golf course that have a kitchen and where kids are allowed... all in the name of protecting the kids.... the law was written to expressly EXCLUDE bowling alleys... so you could still smoke in the bowling alleys where there are tons of families and kids and a kitchen.. but no where else... They have since changed it but it was that way for a couple of years... where was the logic?
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Post by tara on Dec 12, 2008 23:15:03 GMT -5
OC, I agree that it would be infringing on freedoms to not allow parents to smoke in the car with their kids... to me it's common sense, just like buckling them up ( I also think wearing a helmet whether required by law or not falls in the same category) Unfortunately I think we NEED laws to protect children because some parents are too lazy, stupid, or just plain clueless to do the right thing and think beyond what is easiest and most convenient for them. I wish there wasn't a need for laws not to abuse kids but there are, there shouldn't need to be laws saying to use a car seat and buckle your child but there is one. I know there are people who choose to ignore the law, BUT there are also those that do it just because it's law without a second thought as to the possible consequences of not, beyond a fine. I don't think it's right but if it saves just one little life, I am okay. I know smoking is a bit different but it does have a cumulative effect and in cases like asthma it can have immediate consequences to... I don't think a parent should do something that they know (such as with a child with asthma) most likely will cause distress to their kid simply because it's their right. They don't have a choice. Since having kids we always smoked outside but there was a commercial with kids talking 'I smoked two cigarettes on my way to school this morning' maybe it was just a NYstate commercial- but if you've seen it you know which one I mean, that finally pushed me to quit. I guess maybe your right it shouldn't be a law, but because it's not- it doesn't make it right to be a bad parent. It goes along with what you said about not being able to go 2 hours without a cigarette at a restaurant having bigger problems.... if you absolutely can not wait until you get where you're going when your children are in there... pull over and get out. Maybe there should be a license to breed. That's just a far fetched opinion statement, no I do not think there really should be a license to breed- but I do think there are some people who just shouldn't. Who needs religion or politics.... parenting is a far more volatile subject But again, it's all just my three cents.
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